Podcast

[00:00:00] Jeroen: It's Friday afternoon. The building is empty. A good moment for the podcast. This is the innovation officer. The podcast about why we include here in our projects and themes. And today we're going to talk about innovation types. And which? Yes, what types of innovation you have achieved. And I don't do that alone.

That's what I'm doing today with our guest. Marianne van Rossem.

[00:00:30] Marijn: Good afternoon.

[00:00:31] Jeroen: Nice to have you here, Marijn. And we're going to tell you who you are in a minute. My name is Jeroen Vonk. Innovation Designer at Novum, the innovation lab of the Social Insurance Bank. And leading within the Dutch government. And I host this podcast

I forget very often. So do you have any questions and our Dutch at podcast@novum.nu Can we start with this podcast soon? Today we are going to talk about innovation. types. Yes. What are those? Innovation, types. And why That is important we will ask later and Marijn.

And of course you wonder is Marijn. Marijn started organizing major events and theater productions. He also deals with erasure. Get involved in Scouting. But has also been working on innovation for a number of years. For example, you might know it as paying the Dutch version of the mouth Test.

Can't you give that book the mom test? the reading? It's really fantastic. So now also available in Dutch. And completely focused on the Dutch language and Dutch customs. You can also read about articles about innovation that has been done through Ground Control, the company Esther Gons and Timan Rebel worked here and Marijn on his first research for his study Business Innovation at Avans Hogeschool.

But since the beginning of September last year, he has been working at Novum for his second study into the innovation strategy of the SVB. but the best thing I really like is that he will now also support us in the implementation of the innovation strategy. So today we're going to talk about innovation types.

But Marijn I would have told you enough about you, Or just say I want to tell you something about who you are. And what you do or become the most important thing you say is what I want listeners to know about me.

[00:02:21] Marijn: Yeah, the thing that might be nice to say is you've told me a lot about me. And sometimes people still wonder. How to get away from the event sector in the innovation sector. Those seem like two very different worlds. So that might be nice as a background. That I liked organizing events.

It was actually problem solving. And also breaking down barriers. If there were any in the organization of events. And then you actually see the interfaces with innovation. It's really about enabling an ever better organization. And that was in the past that was events, industry.

And also a piece of the theater sector. And now that's innovation and so on. I am also very happy that I can work on the innovation strategy at the SVB.

[00:03:06] Jeroen: It all sounds really cool. can you briefly tell us which study you are doing for which you are doing this research with us.

[00:03:13] Marijn: Yes, I study Business Innovation at Avans Hogeschool in Den Bosch. This training is also popularly referred to as innovation management. And yes, then I get a wide offer. Actually on courses about innovation. And that emanates from real theoretical innovation management. To alone, John, to a piece of design.

Your ex actually all sit together to make you actually an all-round innovation professionals.

[00:03:40] Jeroen: That sounds really cool. And how is your study going?

[00:03:43] Marijn: Yes, but. Good. I started at Novum. Actually with a graduation research. And that graduation research is actually an agreement in the final phase. And then I'm done. And then all is well it is well.

[00:03:59] Jeroen: Interesting. And they can read a little more about your research or about you about your graduation.

[00:04:06] Marijn: and not yet. We want to be on the Novum website in the short term. and explore more. Also show a little more about what's there now. I won't reveal too much just yet, because we will of course tell you something right away. But there will be more to read and more to see in the coming weeks.

do not hesitate if anyone is curious to contact us. Because there is plenty to tell and confess.

[00:04:34] Jeroen: After interesting to her for our social media channels and our website in the holes. If you have questions for Marijn in advance, send your questions to podcast. It's happening now. Then we can already take that for you. Then we move on to the. under what we are going to talk about today are innovation, types where and why work on a particular of innovation types.

[00:04:56] Marijn: Well, it starts of course Within the SVB is the answer to that question. We have described several types of innovation in the Innovation Strategy. and the question which is actually taillight. Why are you even talking about different types of innovation? Some people would also say Yes, but innovation is still just innovation.

Why do we have to make a subdivision there? And what it is actually about is certainly an organization where you are going to innovate on a larger scale. We are going to talk about different types or types of innovation. If you deal with that differently and will be, that applies to portfolio. But that also applies.

Which department should work with which method should you apply? That is why measure, then there are many different levels In which you want to make the division and innovation at a given moment. And when that comes up, you're going to talk about different types of innovation. And that is also reflected here in the innovation strategy of the SVB.

There is a great ambition and to actually get started with innovation with a large part of the organization. That also means that we have to make that division. Because some things are more destined. Get engaged. And some things are more intended for the organization. And then there is already a first division.

So let's do the reconnaissance.

[00:06:12] Jeroen: I get it. But what exactly are innovation types?

[00:06:17] Marijn: Yes, that. And so they are actually. Yes. How do you say you made for a division in the innovation? It's making you. You admit different kinds of different ways. But how you deal with that and which criteria you use exactly is actually very open. And. A commercial organization is sometimes only looked at when we are working on an existing product or a new product.

And that's the only subdivision we make. But sometimes that goes a bit further than that and. But it is. It is nothing more than your own subdivision to determine how you might want to organize projects differently and how you deal with it.

[00:06:58] Jeroen: I can also call you that subdivision.

[00:07:02] Marijn: But within the SVB we have the three innovation types. Do we also do innovation, functions? The and the three types we have is function and improving today. We talk a lot about instrumental improvements to our services.

[00:07:20] Jeroen: also

[00:07:20] Marijn: Function two sorry, going too fast. It. function two is to innovate and make tomorrow possible, we are actually talking about new services, concepts and new initiatives that we develop to serve the citizen in a different way.

And then we also have function three. And that is changing and exploring the future. we also call it exploration innovation. It is actually much more about trends and technology-oriented research to learn what opportunities there are for the organization in the future, but also what obstacles or new needs citizens will experience due to the changing world around them.

[00:08:07] Jeroen: That sounds very clear. But it also sounds a bit familiar. Isn't it really just the same as hearing them model from McKinsey.

[00:08:15] Marijn: If you make this subdivision, it certainly resembles the horizon model. And I also know that at the time the innovation strategy was written. That it has been looked at, is also used that way. But at a certain point we also started to let go of the horizon model a bit. And that has more to do with how exactly do we fill in the different types in a How does in action work?

But you can basically put them side by side. Certainly.

[00:08:40] Jeroen: de Yes, because at the helm is a model. What I often hear from people is that they also say That they hear model. That is very often interpreted differently than it is actually intended. You can also watch the car horizon alone. can I change at short notice? So what does not have an effect in the short term?

Horizon, two streams, some soon so say maybe a few months above a year. And was of three, is also. And that will actually be the impact in a few years.

[00:09:10] Marijn: Yes, in that. In general, it will. for our innovation functions. Very common would be to think in those timelines. But what you do see is that those timelines are getting blurrier. Especially when you're talking about export, active innovation. And it may well be a new technology. Or a new trend emerging.

Where we had in the past about perspective from to. For the sake of simplicity, let's say five years in the future what we need to capitalize on. Then now can be six months and. world is spinning faster and faster. And it can also be a function and innovation. And instrumental innovation takes much longer to develop.

Because many barriers arise in the organization. Perhaps it concerns new systems that have to be purchased for this. So those timelines kind of fade into one. That is also the moment when I myself think that you have to let go of the horizon model a little bit from the time frame.

And it's basically still true. That you want to look into the future at different levels. And why it takes so long, that varies enormously.

[00:10:26] Jeroen: Yeah, it's actually IS that IS our model on innovation types. Not only aimed at the SPD. But she actually has it throughout government. Or the public sector can apply.

[00:10:41] Marijn: Certainly and with the caveat that some organizations can also choose to use certain ones. who fail to pick up on an innovation. It is not for every organization. Whether that is wisdom is another matter to get started with export-active innovation. For some, the organization, that is a far cry from your bed-show and the focus is really very much on the issues of the day and on enabling the services we are doing today.

And then you can make a conscious choice not to start with a somewhat more distant innovation. but in essence, the model is correct and I think the functions are correct. They are certainly applicable to and in any case implementing organizations, but the interpretation thereof and also the choice of whether you tackle all kinds of innovation and in the same way as the SVB would do, and that is of course variable.

[00:11:40] Jeroen: Yes. And what use are our innovation types to others? For you I have to keep calling them innovation types, or.

[00:11:49] Marijn: Yes, we. We use types and functions. A bit mixed up together. I think let's call them invasion types for consistency. And that's actually what comes before. And that has to do with how innovation, types in commercial organizations are determined. What you actually see is that it is a lot easier.

one because it is looked at with different criteria. We talk a lot about and subdivide projects about are we developing a new product are we developing a new business model? we are in the process of reaching new markets. Those are often the dimensions that you see coming back.

And you see a lot. Many models in commercial organizations are actually derived from another court matrix and where? That kind, those people is also capable and how and then. If you then think about it for two seconds, you think Yes, At least from the Chamber of the SVB. But for many government organizations.

We are not concerned with traditional business models. And we are not involved in commercial products. So to what extent do those dimensions still apply? And then you actually come to a point of hey. We actually see that we have different types and innovations in our organization. But the dimensions how they divide.

As is very clear in a commercial organization. We don't actually know that. And what is there then? And what can some bitter literature give us in this regard? And then it turns out that it is quite difficult. And that includes various public organizations, but also other long-term commercial organizations that I spoke to in my research.

Running into this at times. How do we make that subdivision if we are not talking about new business models? And that to get back to your question. You do is. That's what we grabbed. What we said. We also have to look at other indicators to be able to determine.

how that subdivision is. So what we've created now is one. We have found and tested indicators. And with which we can pass projects across different types of innovation. And those are actually not types that are derived from theory. and. And we have also created a first version.

To be able to actually do that on the basis of a questionnaire. So the questions will be asked later. And you answer that. And then a recommendation comes out with scores from We think this tends most towards instrumental innovation.

[00:14:38] Jeroen: interesting. And the questionnaire. That is that focused on the SVB or IS that is a general questionnaire. Why? Why with that question is Ask. I can imagine people not listening served. I wanted a list.

[00:14:51] Marijn: yes

[00:14:52] Jeroen: Come on, are you available?

[00:14:54] Marijn: and. I think we can make the questionnaire available to you. I would like that too. Your questions are correct. In the first instance, the questionnaire focused on the FSVB. One really specific on how we formulated the innovation type in our organization. Seen in the innovations.

But at the same time those indicators I was just talking about. they are universal. So that door there are just talking about. Number of indicators with which you can recognize innovations. And that actually always apply in a long commercial organization. And maybe even a commercial organization. And I would like to share the questionnaire with the world as well.

With the critical remark, look at what does and what does not apply to you. but it does provide more tools to be able to make a subdivision yourself and maybe even develop your own questionnaire on this

[00:15:55] Jeroen: And pecking, I think that's a good starting point. And what I hear is that there are also a lot of lessons to be learned. Because others can learn from it.

[00:16:13] Marijn: and. I think I'll watch it. It depends on how mature innovation is within your organization. But assuming you have an ambition to innovate on a larger scale or level across multiple departments, a Het. distributing innovation. Type actually makes a lot possible. But then it must be possible.

So. So lesson one is actually hey. How do you make it possible at all to make that division concrete within the organization? But what we are now seeing within the SVB is also partly based on the research that has taken place. Is that we are getting better and better, even now implicitly discussing pity. This is actually one that comes with a project.

How do we deal with that? And then we see that when we look through those glasses. That sometimes meant correcting ourselves in the steps we take in an innovation project. I maybe she's there the big lesson though. And you cannot approach every innovation project in the same way. And. And having tools to determine properly.

Where is this project going? And does this project go through the correct process based on the type of project. And if you can manage that in concrete terms, that is an incredibly good intervention to innovate efficiently and make much more impact.

[00:17:40] Jeroen: Yes. There was one that I want to say is. If you don't know in advance what type it is.

[00:17:47] Marijn: No.

[00:17:47] Jeroen: Then you could say, for example, I'll just name something. We want to formulate it on the website to adapt it. So that. We don't see that yet. We see that as something explosive. We are all going to explore new technologies and try things out.

what are you actually wondering, have good customizing the forms. You didn't learn any new technology there. That's basically what we know is doing in a different way. Is that also one of the reasons why it is important to make the selection beforehand?

[00:18:18] Marijn: Yeah, sure. think your example is very black and white for most people. You can find examples yourself. And those that are a bit grayer For example. if we are talking about a type two project. About creating new services from within our organization. And we have an innovation project underway that actually goes beyond that.

And we are, huh. We have now found an application. And maybe we should roll it out across the government. And then? That is a very nice ambition. But then you actually want to ask the question at that moment. Do we still have to deal with this as a traditional type two project? or is this going the other way?

Is something else going to happen here? That does not necessarily mean that the project is going in the wrong direction. And that we have to stop. Absolutely not even. But it's about the jacket. Do you still have to go through the same process? But also where in the portfolio do you place this and it will pick it up. And also where a country might have it in the organization in the case of this case.

[00:19:27] Jeroen: Yes. Yes, that's the. Two weeks ago we had a broadcast about Notify. And that also started as an exploratory study. We have code technology. To other government. Open care, we can use that. But is that something that we can do. And then it actually became type three became type two.

Because we can and we can provide new services.

[00:19:51] Marijn: yes.

[00:19:52] Jeroen: And now you can ask. You have proven that you can provide new services. Also Emma. And then yes. What type will be and where will go? Where will it land?

[00:20:00] Marijn: And that is. I did indeed refer to notes of your further explanation. And it is also in the definition of your innovation type. In the delineation of where does a project end where does something new begin and Notify is interesting because nut tip is actually now on a gray line.

It's no longer traditional type two. Because otherwise we would have now also just proved that it works. We are going to transfer it within the SVB and. from there to look further. So you also want to ask questions. What are the steps we are going to take now? We will continue to conduct user research in the same way.

Are we going to develop the technology in the same way that we would. International project. The CDA is also in you. Now we come up with twenty different projects. In which the lines are actually very thin and I have the Novum team in my research. Also presented a number of cases of innovation a number of times.

Projects where refusal had to decide together. Among which innovations we pass this now and what you also see very often in it. Is that the dividing line between an instrumental service improvements. A new service concept is sometimes still very thin and. And that becomes difficult the moment we say type of innovation.

Instrumental services really lie at the heart of the organization. And type two innovation is a bit further away. That can also take place in an organization. This can also take place at Novum. And that's where we also put innovation support for you and. And there is also a different method. So there are, for example, between one and two there are a lot of examples.

Where it is actually not clear where you see that projects can get stuck on that. Because they take place in the wrong place.

[00:22:03] Jeroen: Yeah, interesting. And you have then given a small insight. On Should you have done that? Many of our listeners inside also especially know. And him too. How can I do it myself? No, that's always nice to. Look. How did you actually do this project? This investigation. You could see that as a project, an experiment and you can explain it briefly.

Step by step how you did this. And maybe include that too. Because it actually sets it apart from the other studies.

[00:22:35] Marijn: Yeah, definitely a look. I came in with a broad question. Lies on the innovation strategy makes it possible. At some point we chose it. To lean on the innovation type because. We have a wonderful strategy where it is described, but actually question was playing.

How are we going to determine the type for each project? And from there or did I get started? And actually one of the first things that does there too. A big part of my research was There are a lot of models. And many are the tools to determine the type of innovation. And also how to deal with it.

So then you dive the literature wins. And actually by the biggest conclusion of that research was. There are actually very few models and tools. That apply to a public organization and/or to a non-commercial organization. From there, you have to work in a different way.

Because the first sex always. What are the existing solutions to check? There aren't actually any.

[00:23:44] Jeroen: no.

[00:23:44] Marijn: You have to work in a completely different way. Then you go exploring. you look at innovation project, a player in our organization and also consciously search for Can we find examples where the dividing line between type was unclear.

And that that may also have caused complications. and started talking to other organizations. Some who also struggle with this issue. from there actually comes a whole lot. In fact, few users continue to research. And that also by looking at innovation projects. Of course also speaks to people in the organization.

There's a whole bunch coming in. Then if you look at the innovation politely, you go to visit patterns. one will hurt you. And which projects are similar. And why is that? And then you put that next to a piece of literature. And in addition to a number of expert findings and. This way you slowly go from a whole lot of user research.

Are you going back to that? In addition to literature, you will search for Where are there similarities? Which indicators can we find that seem to apply. Based on all the data we have now found. And that also makes it necessary to come back to your question, Jeroen. One. made the investigation a little different because we surrounded.

So conscious choice. Where you say There are actually too few existing tool models to help us. So now we have to come up with something ourselves. And how do we do that in a good way. And how do we use the right data for this and to get there?

[00:25:36] Jeroen: Yes, clear. So in the experience you have gained. View with existing models. And that they are very thorough for the commercial sector, we have of course also seen that within no van, we have often seen a lot. innovations are often focused on How can we come up with something. So that I can make even more money.

And that image is actually always the case. We want citizens, end users of government service. Giving a better services. And that's actually our profit. But that cannot be expressed in euros. But that's more of a feeling

[00:26:15] Marijn: exactly

[00:26:16] Jeroen: and darkest you and in division in deep s is focused on that.

[00:26:23] Marijn: yes and. In order to give you a better answer to the question what you come up with is a situation where you can grab non-existing resources. So then you go. It gets a little better. Then you actually innovate on innovating. And what I mean by that is a You would you where the uncertainties are great.

And the knowledge is not there yet. To create a good solution. you start with innovation. And I was just talking about that. Then you actually start doing user research. And you will combine that with the knowledge that is available in the market. There you go a new solution seemed again. And I think what and what most has been the biggest step in the research to arrive at a good result is also. I had just agreed on submitting cases to November 10th.

and several examples of innovation projects and say Okay, I'm going to ask you some questions. They relate to which innovation type it is. And answer that. And then we go. Each Novum team member has done this individually. And we started comparing that data.

And what you see. And that is of course logical. Is it a lot of knowledge within novum about innovation projects? Very much known as implicit about innovation types in the head. Where do we get from that? And there you will also request in the patterns. So we've done that on several occasions. The first time we did much more was our learning.

What did Novum team members actually think? Innovation, types. And how do they make that subdivision themselves? the second time brought a lot more to the solution side. Where the indicators had already been established for how do we distribute innovations? What questions should we ask then? And there we went to do a second test with ten left of ok.

I am now going to work with these indicators and this question me. And then there are unambiguous answers. Look when everyone answers, it all ends up in a nice matrix. and then I say okay, if someone answers question one, then that is innovation type one. And we started comparing that.

And the increased demand is there. If everyone then gives individuality, are we unambiguously in agreement about what kind of innovation project we have and what type of innovation takes place.

[00:28:52] Jeroen: Yes.

[00:28:53] Marijn: That was actually the test that you do in total uncertainty to show hey.

We would come up with something new here, but apparently it works and because we achieve unambiguous answers to the emissions test.

[00:29:10] Jeroen: Yes, so those are also great learning points for our listeners that she was. Being able to learn from it IS that questionnaire. Was that focused basis of the SVB? Or should we have that questionnaire too. be able to make public. That we also that we can let people live things that way.

[00:29:28] Marijn: Yes, me. I would love to share those questions with the world. We have learned ourselves. I believe that in nova's final questionnaire. Because it was seven questions that we work with. So that's actually seven indicators. We learned for ourselves that only five really work well for us.

To make clear decisions. So what I'd like to share with the world is actually These are the questions we're working with. Which we are pretty sure will help us determine the right innovation type, but also below that. These are the questions we did find. Which we think has potential.

And maybe His is applicable to other organizations? It's also about a lot more. Where did it implement? How long does the implementation time take? These are questions that can affect your innovation type. How you want to set it up. But we saw. in the test we did. That there were no unambiguous answers to that at that time.

So there is also room for more research and more development. And there are actually even more questions. So I would like to share and two levels that. And I think we will certainly do that, Jeroen, on our website. And then we certainly take those questions with us.

[00:30:52] Jeroen: let's do it. So we still have a lot of work to do. But you still have work to do with your thesis. So one of the last questions I want to ask is What have you actually learned from what you would like to pass on to our listeners.

[00:31:09] Marijn: a. But I think many of our listeners know that. One of these where works and. But of course I am much more interested in the commercial side of innovation. a very black and white learned to work also in the commercial models very quickly yell yes, if it doesn't have a new business model, it doesn't serve a new market.

And then we just call it instrumental innovation. And throw it in a heap and then it is all like that and the understanding that there are in public organizations, that those types actually apply just as much, but that we have not yet explored that from the literature. and has also shown me that it probably applies to many more things in public organizations.

It is a call to myself and everyone who came up with it. Upwards. To explore the and which aspects of innovation. Which systems of innovation that work well in the commercial newspaper are underexposed in our sector. How do we get started with that? Because I think there is.

be very much. I think where also have to have the guts. To deal with it in a different way. So that's, that's the lesson I take with me too. Why I think it's incredibly cool. To get started in the coming months. Implementing the innovation. You have that at the SVB.

But I would like to share that ambition with the whole world. Take a critical look at everything that doesn't work. Stops it. the pre-eminent grab of the commercial models when they actually don't work. And made exploration what is possible. And make the connection there with other organizations as well.

'Cause someday you'll see I've seen that too. Those issues you run into. take place at one level in another organization. And that they may have different insights than you do. Then you can create a new solution together.

[00:33:17] Jeroen: That is also innovating.

[00:33:18] Marijn: Sure.

[00:33:19] Jeroen: Those are very nice words. then we have come to the end of this episode I want to thank you very much for these insights. More on our website soon. And maybe soon more about your research. If you thought he had completed me, then I'd say this was another episode of evaluation officers.

nice to have you there Mary. be back in two weeks. follow us on your favorite podcast channel. Any questions in us join us on podcast and November now. And for more information, check out our website, November now. until wonder time always have a nice weekend, Marijn.

[00:33:53] Marijn: Have a nice weekend.